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goodnow america's longest war its most costly war its first military the treaty and aswell as nightmares national problem people spell often what went wrong how it applied to the u_s_ get involved with vietnam a tragic mistake asliberals crying did the u_s_ lose because ofself-imposed constraints as conservatives crying could we have won the war quijoteunleashed a military machine

and bond the north vietnamese back tothe stone age what was the cost of vietnam the human cost the politicalcost the economic cost about united states and the vietnamese one person who have been researchingthese questions for over ten years is william gibson we've just published abook the perfect war techno war in vietnam with atlanticmonthly press though is a graduate of the universityof texas where he did his undergraduate work

and he got his p_h_d_ at yale university and is now a professor of sociology atsouthern methodist university and dollars and we're very pleased to haveyou with us today alternatives built a discussion ofvietnam dot this is an incredible book erbil uh... you have read a lot about vietnam or if you havenever read anything about vietnam

this is the one you should read because uh... it shows the picture from the top from the bottom and it gives a explanation this to whatreally happened there and quite things happen usually come back what kind of emptyfeeling unwell frustration or not really knowing that you after reading your book yet youunderstand him incredible and i were thinking and yougot the emotional feeling the impact

as well as what was happening in themind an incredible stories like hell the north vietnamese were able to bring down american justice by lying onthe back and firing forty-five rifles weapons but i'm getting out of the storydoesn't know what they did and i talking about that in your opinion isdistinctive about the vietnam war what about that broughtabout u_s_ involvement in this bill clinton adventure the most distinctive features of thevietnam war

but it was the first warren modern times to be taught from a managerial jismeperspective during world war two u_s_ industry maydomestic contribution to the war african american military man and politicalleaders fully appreciated that effort during world war two the militarypartially adopted a business model organization put their supply operation after world war two they began to thinkof combat there's also a production process

the option of core racine ottersgladiator heroes who were meeting in combat but is a poor managers internally enlisted men we're no longer the citizens of thenation but they were workers managers and workers that worked on theproduction line to produce deaths and the product and was in the bodycounts so just in american society stsupposedly was high technology capital-intensive business

so too it we fight wars is high-technology capital-intensivework there we would be able to drive the other sidebankrupt so if this production model of war orwhat i call techno war that distinguishes at a primary structural level vietnam from other warfare and will bend and uh... in this way wecouldn't lose because we were fighting

and ball underdeveloped uncritical third world country look has inspected exactly from an american perspective the only thing that counts in warfare is technology in economics welcome your economy and how youtranslate our economy into your military dead week it was impossible for us toloosen theoretically impossible who are going to develop hasn't economy

to beat the united states it justcouldn't happen therefore whenever we ran into a problem in four fifty four or sixty or sixtyfour every time you asked me to do this we always thought that if we castrelated to the next highest level we would win it's a closed system and there's always vietnam chosen at thestart for the first

etna war uh... there's no stork will resume for vietnam it was really vietnam as acountry as a people as a culture didn't really matter to the americans so there was nothing about about the country per se to make despite their it was certainly the time winner of thiswhole apparatus of warfare was

developing vis-a-vis the time and situation in vietnam was deteriorating from an americanperspective techno war or this this production model of war gotits big push in the fifties because after world war two when we hadto hydrogen bomb atomic bomb newsletter the hydrogen bomb the russians didn't it seemed clear restaurant mastery ofthe world was just unsurpassed we could

not be challenged between the russians had the bomb wewere in a situation of potentially mutual destruction where they coulddestroy our industrial apparatus then this may be americans feel good but so the question came as how can wedevelop our form of warfare too into exercise our power in the world without threatening nuclear war

in the idea developed by doctor henrykissinger it with the time was a professor ofpolitical science at harvard we what's called limited before and the idea was because our economy wasso big and powerful we could have guns and butter butterm_t_v_'s in popcorn in drive-ins poured hula hoops for the americans athome event limited war for an indefinite period of time thatthey were all because we were so much

richer we we just got the other sidebankrupt and there was a period where it's certainly guerrilla movements ofthe national liberation lives were allegedly said cubanrevolution in nineteen fifty nine a network third-world revolutionary movement tooutline of the western the opposite side of the french and british empire coulddeteriorate worldwide sitting behind yet not a classic case of the vietnam havebeen a french colony will prolong crosses a revolt soviet noticeably it was ready we hadour theory

for limited war we had our apparatus inplace at the time vietnam's was uh... well by the time difference had beenthrown out can you give us a brief at history uh... vietnam a nurse scrabble burst into chinese and thefrench et cetera leading up to american intervention certainly the word vietnam initiallycame seventeen newman yet and it was a uh...

part of china that weaponry break off it's like chineseimmigrated anna quindlen pulmonary racially-based ingrid and tried to ukraine claim independence chinese amperage would invade it nowhold the country for several hundred years it is amazing grows up riders we're booked by thechinese after chinese within invading colder for another fifteen hundred yearslimited means would throw them out and hold on for fifty years

this is the struggle between vietnam andchina for vietnamese attendance went on forhundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years finally a bit kind of vietnamese had i repeat china they were improbable we thought in them because of the time of the westwas expanding and france was looking for a way to getthe china

for the uh... spiced ratings and so onended up taking vietnam so perhaps took a vietnam's economy inthe eighteen nineties vietnamese often run against the frenchwere making earnings are not they just kept on putting with the newworld war two the communist uh... especially headed back which youmay remember million chapin pepto organized better they fought against the japanese

and then after declared theirindependence in forty five and ironically american uh...intelligence operatives are supported that effort extensively and putting them as i understand it lookat that time the united states as a model to developers country not to thesoviet union position was that he had paid off whatever he had tempeideologically otr soviet union and that he was a free agent was not getting anyassistance and that the american over thedeclaration of independence

it stated time period this policy there's a far better possible that a lot at the bottom of the market's leafletand good at that part of the nationalist and a democrat to some extent so there are certainly a national osamahow much a democrat i'm not i'd i wouldn't prize-winner lip service there was novalues that walton trailer but certainly an actual club and they got to be amazedif he did the french in fifty four after eight years of

extensive work fare stand to grow upthere into court impressed understand the war in vietnam was one country if you'd be intended to be divided intothree administrators owned by the french but work there was going on all free when the war ended in fifty four thecountry look like a checkerboard celebration in march tom gjelten thesoviet union or some french cities held in the south other areas held by the uh... by the company's communist

more than seven hundred evenings thiswas only checkerboard been at the geneva peace talks innineteen fifty four there was a land swap vietnamese forces move north frenchconsolidated their forces in the south awhile is drawing a provisionaladministrative boundary nada national boundary not political boundaryadministrators on a boundary the idea was the country would bedivided for two years now with the international election two fifty six there were no such an order uh...elections

united states meredith would support understand this idea ofnorth vietnam as a separate country saturday's south vietnam was wrong there was no more from south vietnam astwo separate countries that was uh... uh... obstet there was a checkerboard at the end at fifty four they got theygot changed that had happened at least out to begetting the resistance struggle women

the grill twenty eight fifty four the vietcong himself we're told to put down their guns andthat they were going to engage in political struggle for two years in preparation for fiftysix elections out that became extremely dangerous uh... dam demand the americans printout immediately went after and honey downmost of the communist leftist democrats

nationalist meridian and his family willget numb pretty much a dictatorship um... annexed by midnight for the late fifties the local communist entangled miller and socialistin democratic apparatus was taking casualties so badly doubt they had to renew the armedstruggle to survive excessive bleeding and decide oncongress put pressure on the north former communist party

to like reopen the military front and have a joint political and militarystrategy as opposed to simply trying to wait for international intervention are killed by the unitednations or something so that that's the origin of reserves tothe heart of the best response to this day for your response is quite simple versesup wearing the green berets had originallybeen formed a parachute into eastern

europe uh... after to organize guerrilla movements ineastern europe cotton reformulated ads counterinsurgency experts and theywere sent to vietnam by president kennedy in nineteen sixty euros onmassive increase in c_i_a_ operations the whole idea colour workday remembered and counterinsurgency war criminal wefailed at the bay of pigs in nineteen one sixty one

and so the idea was we must becomeexperts say fighting these world wars of national liberation and that we must have new warriortechnicians who can intervene underdeveloped countries countries fix things and the green berets now were onebranches fix-it men c_i_a_ operatives were another various logistics people we cannoteconomist well were others

which memory understand the class structure ofvietnam in support of rule society most of the people of landless peasantsour own very small plots of land there under subsistence agriculture where a large part of the crop goes tothe landlord asmara land owning cleverest p presentsa buddhist with practiced elements of confucian isms well a small and an in-class like many ofthem at every p_g_ eastman north many have been catholic

controls the nation's wealth so d_m_ i'm the government d_m_ users in the army asa mechanism to collect lips and during the first war against thefrench debit card will be distributed the land to the peasantry so indium came to power in fifty fourwith the army in a naked is agents of the landlord tocollect here's a bachlorette notice intruding in total class

polarization increased one more time adelphia cultivate part intoevolutionary perspective exactly and then g_m_ had to use more morerepression as a result of the dissatisfaction withthe regression internet the nurses at the time that the get karke honorscourses felt like they had to resort or something so this is why you made your statementin your book that the m had an army but given that he was not a government that's right knowed it was no expectedadministration under the military

administration deliveries to replace allforms of village council all forms of intermediary powers that any linkage to to below were destroyed instead our loyalty wasfrom the potsdam yet the american escalation didn'treally dramatically accelerating talked again thisfascination what brought about this dramatic acceleration and what you call type ofwork to vietnam will be able to go on and all the othervietnamese generals begin a power

struggle among themselves consequently whatever governmentrepressive apparatus t_m_ had collapsed desertion is increased radically defections um... yet communist becamestronger and stronger by sixty-four american policymakersfeared that there would be a provisional will be revolutionary government open provisional revolutionary governmentmuch in the countryside which we have lost i mean it's good to say

u_s_ forces lost or the french lost him forty five we lost again in fifty four we lostagain sixty three sixty four we escalate kenya nothing escalated and pasted eatennot in the face of victory right massive defeating sixty-three andsixty-four broadband yemeni put u_s_ ground troops and sustained bombing of the north andwant to try to sell versace's reject why couldn't you have to accept the decedenthas a small corner of the world the united states has been unwilling todeal with communism as a political

social economic movement instead ifyou've seen that we as americans are the natural beams ofthe world of capitalism is the national economic order and i'm in our system innocently the essence of feeling good nursing absence of nature therefore something very very differentfrom ours is none other society within onecompares differences in extremes with its own and so forth

but instead intimidating presence where nature theirentire nature or what i call the for another during world war two the soviet union did take over right after world war twodid invading take over eastern europe the red army didn't want to hold it as abuffer zone and they didn't stop epic dictatorships there this became a model

all-american views of communist andsocial severely cut americans did not understand it to arevolution they did not understand the chinese revolution in the forties that they were likemillions upon millions of poor peasants who wanted land survive in a mouse atoner communist party offered in lance arrivalwhere's chiang kai-shek was a warlord who offered and nothing unable to see in total struggles for socialism or communism or

while you are unable to see even incairo struggles for national independence against queen elizabeth the longest dividing to be aninteresting and we have three guys who the bad guysthey are looking for another day trying to move and so all forms of communismkit movements get scene in that so in this incident in particular limit in the world is notjust a particular moving up toward poor country and it's really one hundredpoorly written on this matter

and we had uh... a little bit smiththere is still any movement is a sign of aglobal movement there are so you know if you're poorpeasants with vietnam that doesn't mean just that they havelittle to a few more people have a few more honest instead that means the before and other monolithic machine his encroached one orstep into each other step

the rest of the world becomes a pair ofthis of course the dominant very sulekha contagious disease sort of that sort oflike each country having school his treatmentown culture in his own people intercept the world's leading to shell i could just poured into the arson atthis time once they get going to somehow i'mmaking a stigma minimal propel cognizant of victory it's a billion

adequate mechanistic anticrimeinitiative is a mechanistic framework of the world make enemies is for the other day are we doing it allconstruction but isn't that also water two sides ofthis the other side of the people of the big decision makers dave'sforeign-policy establishment retirement looking at the world on a more realisticbasis as uh... general maxwell taylor said inhis book we have to keep an iron grip on the third worldcountry because they're poorer and they want which is in the riches would haveto come from us

so they look at any type of victoriesthat unique as an he can such as in providing an example to other thirdworld countries that if they can do it and get away within vietnam they can get away with it in order to universal siddiqui vietnam'suniversal sign of her national liberation victory everywheredefeated vietnam means that all liberation movements will give uptheir struggle suburb given the fact that i have uh...there is uh... that uh... that still caught back to the united states that have built up in the militarymachine bottled water given a

mechanistic anti communism was motivatedthe foreign policy decisions i have the u_s_ foreign policy establishment andgiven the clots began sake of these government in vietnam there is almostinevitable that u_s_ involvement would intensify that this war was not anaccident that is what i was not just uh... policymistake that was a consequence basically u_s_ foreign policy u_s_industrial military uh... development since world war twothat this was a test case this is where they test of whether she needs dot communismi really restriction together

i am more than the crucial arguments on trying to like critique in my book is this notion that that wejust made one mistake after another that nobody which really smart or breaking the bankjust sort of slipped up you don't go to war that where you go towork are far in advance in sixty four oh one

johnson was making announcements aboutthe gulf of time canon just sort of like i was surprised attack which it wasn't uh... in and early sixty five when they were making goodness misternaked public domain which in two thousand more trips to vietnam they fully expected kissing two hundredthousand people bugging the sixty five and another hundred sixty two and athousand sixty-six another hundred thousand are sixty seven with the estwhich were already there could be a

ticket happening in the end but i had a bad it up and down towards aplan warfare plant escalation well let's talk about the war itself and three others techno war actually worked out itself in the ground in theair by the use of helicopters the helicopter warren search-and-destroy canyou describe the somehow they were tonight well not quite a bit there is generaljunio generals write books

they're kinda like academicians venitalike like to publish in order to get poorer promoted at the hierarchy wenormally don't believe them but i think that way but it is stripped of his deathby their actions justify their actions are used book is called shopping thecombat engineers analysis to reinforce military just uh... notre judgment it'spublished by putnam the army and in the first chapter yourself that we can compare asearch-and-destroy operations in vietnam to an assembly line it was a pill angrily and what thatcould be objectivity unlike a world war

two world war one would you have acontinuous fight going on thousands of miles you have a major offensive is in acounter-offensive internal lol in vietnam it's back re economist backyards unitedone full blast all but i think that's the grand jury aproblem how do you just allocate your resources given the fact that you'vealready decided to run an actual capability

that that is bad and it is body count search-and-destroy means that settle somewhere between several hundredand several thousand american soldiers are going to search a block of countryside for viet cong or north vietnamese troops and they're going to try to engage themin combat and of course and destroy whatever troops or whatever suppliesthey capture

imperious strategic often sick meaning it's a way that could put theviet cong weaker at the moment to hunt them down were hunters democratic the objective used to cure all the enemy so fast that we reach what's called we calledthe crossover ports a general william westmoreland st

the crossover point needs you're killing me any faster then they can replace their cash orchecks like you to drive the other sidebankrupt un saludo a high-technology withouthelicopters are jet fighter bombers our tanks we don't put condom up now that's the theory

the practice of search-and-destroy oftenturned out very differently in that part a sickly other factory will decide the routine operations and this routines we're quite visible tothe vietnamese for example we just didn't also didn't show up onemails

into an area in began the search instead you had to like reconnaissance planeshad to go over it artillery guns had to shoot smoke roundsinto the jungle into the landing zone all the other artillery guns could sideand so they could like fire protective artillery strikes around the landingzone if you really kind of unikom commander

if you see a smoke when i'm coming up inthe jungle while you know that the americans aregetting ready to move on chat um... a helicopter assault there aren't that many clears out of itclears in in nablus territory real swamps ordinary in jungle you can tell whether women'sown mazak so many times the viet cong commanders head of a very substantial advance notice upon womenamericans were going to begin operation

consulate they have a choice do we runin height are doing a bit the americans we might the secular pushed way takes the landingzone the second and third whereas bring inmore artillery if you're a viet cong commander you getout your compass in your map you draw a circle of radius and on themap and that will tell you because you knowthe dominican artillery hunting five-millimeter howitzer has our twothousand your radius

so you know that the americans will notmuch broader outside the range of their howitzers so you can tell where the americans are going to watch do you run and hide dignified this sort of thing kind of principlegoes on the it's in essence they knew where we work but we did notknow where they work and they have the uh... they have beenissued a very heavy initiative

at that rate if you have to rain so if you have the military's ownstatistics roughly three quarters of the battles invietnam were initiated by the economy in the air meaning they endorsed u_s_ forces and can make a decision also most battles immediately in the economyin the a wanted them you need they could like initiate contact himbreak contact and methods are two crucial definitionsof combat initiative

and your other statistic that only a m to percent of the search-and-destroymissions did we actually may contact uh... or original contactwith the vietnamese so was their choice the whole time andas i understand the soldiers themselves on the ground they didn't like thisbecause they're the ones who would have to take the casualties first to lure the vietnamese into battle so that then they uh... americans withno word on the plane who worked on the

artillery he sent out a patrolling in order to getan ambushed in order to market target with a smokerocket from the helicopter or such so then the judge can come in and napalm inthe area in other words you have to get ambushed before you can find the enemy you know when i began logan research ihad a hint that i was going to find a very cavalierattitude towards work an idea of vietnamese later died

i was surprised to understand thecommand attitude towards their own saulters but this think about it what kind ofproduction model organic techno war either yes or no easiest one manager sir we have a draft we can replace all thecalvo labor that we loose can be replaced and indeed it's like migrant labor forcechromosome alexei whereupon you bring an end per year when you have heard a deathin chicago they were qy dot well not much but a lot of ourother poor working-class

twice the ideologues so what if they walk into an ambush we take somecasualties that way but they will call in our airstrikes in colorado artilleryfire will use our technology and to do to get the body count sorrow in essence the grant ritual bait they will be sent out

on operations to being ambushed and that not agood wait to survive and welfare unites a movement it was suicide i was one of the worst patrols you couldever go ahead the purpose of it was four years walk upon charlie and for him to hit you and then for a hardware to wipe them out

we were used as scapegoats to find outwhere they were there was no we were haley couldn't find charlie any otherway so the locals around into a whole bunchup mentally they could plastering than it had a big body count mahendra generalgets another god damn metal in a big promotion let's also note again the highest officer routinely on theground during vietnam was a captain thecaptain's

company commander company had at noticed about a hundredand forty people in it that would be at full strength most combat units never operateupholstery everyone above captains level battalion commanders demand of kclcommands four companies all battalion level officers beginningto gage commander several battalions divisions has several regimentsabrogated all the rest of those toppers

course for those commanders inhelicopters trying at minimum of fifteen hundredfeet because fifteen hundred feet is themaximum range of the fifty caliber machine gun when used as an antiaircraftweapons which until the latter part of the war with the largest any aircraft weaponthat contact so the managers were relatively state in this process which is the workers who are suffering the occupationalsafety

uh... after-dinner hazards on on theground logistics taps in terms of the numbers in the bodytowns did they actually uh... immunologicsucceed or where the costs greater than the benefit even in terms of the logic travel things happened for one all the american commanders inhelicopters communicated in uncommitted english

to their subordinate officers of groundtroops the common in the a were able to buy american radios in the black marketcapture others they routinely listening to all the orders there are many stories keyboard appear calm hearing americanorders from him taking actions to circumvent the share arrogance of

nowhere in my helicopters we have allthe stuff we don't have to attempt unit to pay attention to her in the andend up costing american life span so that part didn't work army took within a year so by late sixty six or so economy in the idea of how long it wasgoing to take an american air strike to get there sometimes they can make a terriblemiscalculation get caught up in open

but in the state in the commander it could make a resort judgment how long he canstay in combat before he had to run like hell because the uh... air force of againlook at the hearings are going to have to come and go after him so a lot of times embassies would be quite brief communitywould break off contact

well we've mentioned body count a coupleof times let's get into that kind of whole framework of corruption and lies and cover-ups that are curtail it'ssimple portland without so far successor worst trillion anybody can escrito try driving oversight bankrupt and his presume that uh... we humans does our was just on thegentleman that night your tenants are captain time and yourcaptain kirk company commander sailor

you're under pressure under pressure to produce a bodycaptains of carmel semicolon battalion commander if i don't leave my quota my career's over with obvi relieved of command if you reallythe combat command then you're going to take it but the hierarchy is is gone saga squeeze you

and back in some units it kind of where the informal rule wasif you don't meet your body count quota and we're going to like they're notgoing up to steal we'll just need your help bring small ammount somewhat kuchmawater but don't expect you know you've got like produced goods and unify came back without a body countor at least prisoner and and get my hands to so i kept the patrol out like talk to uh...

leading to many soldiers who werewounded they're the ones i saw in japan and they told me that some units weregiven a quota for the week and if they didn't get it but they were just sent right back outagain uh... you're under pressure we severesevere pressure would you do well you can do several things one you can just to get a bike you can just add up in the air just likea a

say call up and have elected everyone inyour unit kioto your entire class there you twopara frame sixteen for about uh... for many common admit it and i'll call up on the radio in thereport that i have a your body count of thirty articulate five or something like that so you get in touch with a communalcompany chambers um... you call an air strike in callingartillery strike and the charming you nearby

in you actually having kids when youfind too many bodies well you know needed it if you've got to bodies and you've gotthree different units artillery air in a country of ours who is going to get the credit what if you don't give credit to theartillery what do you think might happen

what did he say you fired that munis does that sound like a large palestinianartillery commanders dry giving support to unite become sligo path that m aroundhow those air force pilots might have to have a an inaugural solitude it in your interest to reward everyone inserts everyone isunder the same system everyone reads body count well sure we give you fifty air force we give youfifteen gunships we give you get the

autoimmune we on the ground i've got five bodies and i've got five rifleswere counting truck was a five persons killed so i guess is twenty five and while we were outstanding aroundwith continuing coverage out i beg your pardon tim graves or count them too everybody park in body parts a we fineon my leg injury because sometimes really whitman air strikes a deal yetyou can blow people smithereens unlike

the warm everywhere everyone is nicediscrete data yeah anne-marie award it's quiet there are stories of poor people fromdifferent units had the fight over arms and legs to determine who is going to get thekill cal pregnant and of course they got the getting morepernicious because they would slaughter vietnamesecivilians and include emini children women all people include themas part of the body count

who should get clear on on asking about in some areas of the war whimper u_s_forces were fighting uniform north vietnamese troops too many civilian casualties a whole a whole lot of vietnam battlesoccurred wait inside the country where there were the economy a card andthe villagers were off will very much the same people went home search and destroy the nationslittle-known stuckey limiting the moon solely

killed everybody he's happy to be standing alongside officer on the radio man said wexler we've gotsome children rounded up what do you want to do it coming officer says god damn it bring ina lot to do it and kill the bastards you ain't got to god damn balls to killa marine i'll come down killed a bunch of myself marine said yes sir

and hung up the phone at about two or three minutes later iheard a lot of automatic fire and a lot of children screaming hired babies crying angered children scream in her life search-and-destroy we support whereas ifyou say you new units burned down villages routinely

um... continue going to be a legendaryagain and you see the brokers there's only one invietnam had about providing it you here in orange maybe maybe screamingtry get somebody out there that maybe you just rather than a million uh... more people start to wet away fromyou and well if they weren't community mustbe ready and so you shoot them in central runningbecomes a sign of anatomy we've been out for about three hours

and i'm really haven't seen anything wastoo hot but then i saw this figure of blackpajamas running along up and he died about three hundred meters ahead and to the left a flow how you know igot what i mean i hollered ten o'clock even mine man i a matter of the warning to halt toregulations don't lie dont lie so i got to learn me squeezed the trigger

blackmun trying like a piece of paperand augusta win chlorine got stomped morgan shouted not shot dead natasha nukem when you reach the body and that's acorp space up with my boot the long run uh... picked five to sixty meanwhile he says stupid goog when she ran for

uh... we were run and a free-fire zone and we saw women a woman and childrunning across them that captain says well they're they're they're running well free-fire zone they're running the wrong and they'rethe enemy so he shot him polls club opened up on the next morning we went out

and we could see the cap of the child that was bloody and you can see where the mother draggeda child away prove separate they're afraid they're trying to survive and desperate situation but under highpressure to produce a body count so yes we got into sustained slaughter it means villagers

you go through the work in a man's hands energy if he's a true farmer he has campuses any pisa grew up he really fake farmer he doesn't see yougo when you look at the hands of those if he doesn't have enough calluses whenyou called in the way he seemed to interrogation center would you look at the ankles a man he was a guerilla he must be andwhen that dana julian is any causal

scratch where these are finally when youhave something scratches so people will go american soldiers will go and look at ankles work is going to be actually a problemidentified about nine months time to get much sleep so you can answer those are your eyes so u_s_ soldiers are going to look intothe act of the vietnamese and try to send him anincoming banks they hadn't been convention did he get hauled off

when people in our country it was not our culture would not speak the language imbaba netware looking at war language culture history class structurethis matter student didn't matter what matters we had the hollywood minutedidn't well is that part of a helicopter gunship we had arule about the use of the day steve actuallymet anyone taking dated action to be

fired upon major explains why or even what was going to know wherethere is one answer that i recall where we flew over a large rice paddy and there were some people down they'reworking on the rice paddy maybe dozens fifteen individuals and we passed over their heads but in taking action who would you tellthe remembers amarendra hyder anything

so we are covered by just a few feet offthe ground among about two helicopters return on our police sirens andeliminated at least fighters they started to disperse instantly open up on this channel nine when i was six thirty in the evening and uh... still daylight and they saidthere was some greasy out there in the call on us so we fired out there until all seven ofthem wentworth comes back to us we killedseven rice farmers care in their homes

they're trying to make it back to thevillage seaweed set up to this uh... cook foryou six p_m_ to six a_m_ himself he was up to them to be out of here bythat time pale they didn't carry any wrist watchesthey didn't have any idea what i mean a lot so yes people got home away from traditionalnever came back

really villagers were brought into theground and blown up and yes meaning it means men women children chickens water buffalo pigs complex often who will care often times you intovillage destroyed right shot everything hamburger crops across and alcohol use

lieutenant and houses the only you know for people who treatyou right when you walk through that billy jean do you hate you know they can be that's not even ifthey can be read they won't say nothing to eat and we expect him to run out the welcomethose like at world war two type of stuff you know how do you do you know ihavnt seems we step outside the door leads thecaptain radios them where under heavy contact

and right away who who spent on jetstarcome in and dropping them five hundred-pound bombs the whole villageswere leveled and we go into the next election and that is search and destroyed all this was like a part of what youcall the miracle worker it's essentially if it's getting to get a new jersey city in which hope when it is just orange hat documentscall rules and gatien's they're supposed

to specify when you can open up by whenyou can't on civilians bother anyone used match at all new instead of other kind of rules have tolet me say that they were under any okay at but the job that was one looksunusual containing the emmys wearing black uh... the heart was the enemy course allpeasants that more that international address soto all kinds of the state rules thatsupposedly distinguish b imprint compo the army's rules were wrong in that wejust didn't know the culture they were

kind of like fabrications that americansinvaded to try to make themselves feellegitimate about who got shot you know but honestly people saw through this and said look we listened to practices in the urbangoogle disability and he's just bc immediate means wish you were talkingabout insulting but also the factor of racism throughlike sudden death how much they would

have done that they've been fightingturbo ites probably much less course for a chance to go to slopesplanted tank one definition of the day vietnamese was their leaders if they've been napalm they were calledcrispy critters and made one minor went when we killed a pregnant woman we can do is to bc one soldier

and one cadet now what you do is you know with all thefriendly smith friendly vietnamese onto ships and taken out to the south china sea and then you bomb the country flag he asleep issued i'd like to burn the whole country down and then start again with americans bombed the schools and churches bombediraq steals tuning

showed the children in the courtyard isjust what napalm candy too strafed apana kill the people droppednapalm and the square and get out early ever sunday n ketchumat the morning in prayer broke and it to the are being gatherthem all around they keep writing millimeter canon and mold the bastardsand down there's also capped a certain sadism not only in soldiers on the field butalso intelligence people

people who would collective years and fingers and even heads and evenintelligence people with with admit that they really got off to beating up the uh... people they were interrogating if you don't get nice bud thrill to do it when you look for some reason i worethem once

many had made valiant efforts to try totalk about the covers a lot of some sort of warfare over there he said his arm clearly avery strong statist dimensions a lot of right uh... in the field as well as killing alot of rates followed by killings and relations when we do know women only before five of us we go intothe village in take a girl

and bring her out to be into the jungle we tell her to lie on the ground don'tscream otherwise weed killer immediately and uh... well how many regards there were wellthey did what they want to do it guys are a good mood they let her go anyone and killer how the girls were unconscious

that's a big band repeatedly raped and then after we got your raping andthree of them g_i_s type and the players and eighty shot him in the girls vaginas negroes were bleeding from their mouthsnoses spaces at the jonas than the g_i_s uh... the plight of theexterior portion of the players they exploded inside the girls click

their stomachs just exploded well one day i was driving back travel abroad and on about growth and a guy comes over to me and he sayshe needs some counseling and say why i look over and i see this girl when shestrapped and she's tied the two mistakes i don't know what they've done to herbefore i got there well they poured gasoline all over thegirl tabela why did it

they let it and then they just doug dare and watched ur bernau it if you look at the body consistentlysee attached only thing that counts the body can attached but that's what wewere to punishments are distributed by if that's your etc energy on command does it really care

whether you survive recruiting in a world where anythinggoes it becomes a good times will talk to youall it was a rival or or to hold onto your ethics i think a good example of this oliverstone's movie platoon which is currently in release which has a u_s_ militaryunit which severely defied uh... divided between one group who commits atrocities and others whothinks it's a horrible or war situation

and i think that's a good with the goodillustration of public on a dynamics that could mean the years illusions ep everyone is a killer or or or safe list its rejection in a structure wearer a significant component of your troops engage in such behaviorbut none of it

so it seems that then you know we talkabout coffee we talk about the line when you use that term atrocity it was an exception to a new law that'snot a good way to look at our world let me lie and atrocities we're just business asusual in in a life seems a littlewell-organized in particular organized but certainly certainly mail i wasn't really villagein vietnam was burned out and everybody

in sight we shot that is that that isthat is not true at all who said that is precisely the reasonability on the ground war to distinguish between friend unfair obesity and peasant farmer the lead to the next dimension uh... atthe world the participation program the fact that they weren't ableto tell who the enemy lads that they had to put out the whole country journeycompany if you can't open from perot the needy populate the countryside himrudimentary few into concentration camps and retreat urban slums

it's not easy to be popular countrysidefor several major techniques were used to kill podi asian should be destroyed athird base of the country this is where wage in orange county agent orange in asian blue nationwidewere sprayed on millions of acres of crop land uh... other millions of acres a forcewith affiliated so if it based on people have to work secondly

certainly bottoming attacks on villages which were quite quiteextensive discouraging courage people to move an employer actual search-and-destroyoperations were villages sandwich everyone is killed others inwhich you should be surrounded village mood everyone out being burned at thevillage in mood in the middle east three minutes millions and millions of years andhospitals worse yet concentration camps into urban slums

what's so interesting is the americansolicit progress this was our organization rural is bad berman is good even though they have nothing it was brought into the uh... sees asign of progress through bring vietnamese and where you could show them t_v_ and and make them work in american uh... bases and so on and so forth

was seen in setting up a moresophisticated job and being a peasant farmer this is also part i think senator i'mi'm not saying the enemy and a as uh... culture or as individuals orpeople the same time just as mirror images of urself like they'd bombing of north vietnam wasforced her to mcveigh's during their capacity to have consumer goods certainly interesting idea you would take the numeric restricted

no getting scared about their hope that they would care about their wayother than a dog in their ancestors grave in their life's field to retrieveit instead simply just to have vishnu good havethis close to surrender deliver the earlier but that in itself was just unmitigatedgood like people's lives were not important part of the root of humandimension was completely lost listed america's bid we can count

ham a_t_t_'s reported this month howmany hundreds and how they're by i think that the war was applicable the vietnam in a way certainly hit exactly it could be inmany ways to create a tremendous destruction but he could not stop a very powerful united people who trying to change the law that this willbe a our topic then expelled them with that at a time

for the day and next week we receivedthe limitations of that the world white it failed in vietnam also discuss what'swrong with the liberal and conservative interpretations in vietnam we'll seewhat lessons we can drop couldn't he had not experienced we also will talk aboutsome other aspects of the vietnam war of the tet offensive for instance but uh... the big turning point in theworld body revisionist historians particularly conservative said that itwas an american victory whether there was it not also talk aboutthis fascinating phenomenon which theamerican army

refused to fight or many elements in ourbed as a matter of fact they start attackingtheir own officers and uh... senior enlisted people phenomenon is and will conclude with a discussion ofsome of the parallels the central america of some of thefailures of u_s_ policy in central america howthey can be eliminated by the failures of the policy in vietnam so that thanksfor coming tonight denies that he had a nice being informative discussion i willlook forward

through next week welcomed alternative use them for thesecond or two part series about the vietnam war bill gibson who wrote an incredible bookabout vietnam war called the perfect war technol war and his blood the perfect lloyd cutlerwar in vietnam was recently published by a blanketmonthly press and itself i was there is an extremely good reviews it wasfavorably reviewed in the wall street journal curtis review described it as aperceptive coach insignificant

and so far the best analysis of the mainof america's on the military defeat highly recommended gloria emerson in areview described the broadcast although many valuable books on the word fifty asrecords obtained an endurance there's no work through the cheese but this does because he might just say this from ourmost comfortable life instead delusions william gibsonshould the honored and john stockwell describes his broadcast and all of my research on the subjectthat are not going to compare with doctor gibson's perfect war herinvaluable insights in the u_s_

methodology it's hideous the results of the wartonight we're going to talk about the things we didn't cover um... we're going to talk about tet the importance of appetite offensive we're going to talk about cali unitedstates army slot and and uh... they decide they were not a fight thatwar anymore we're going to have an evaluation of thevietnam war how many how the people look

at it from various aspects and will also takea final okay have we learned our lessons are we still biting fighting techno war and central america or at least planningto what is your interpretation of at thewater we get involved techno warming to fight wars productionprocess the military became deeply impressedwith big businesses contributions of world war two after world war two the military candecided that not only would like to

supply operations be organized to acorporate alliance but that actual conduct the warfare will be organizedwhile corporate lines the officer quoted managers they listedmeeting with the workers the product was in the body count just is american business prided itselfon high technology capital-intensive production systems so to our military have high-technologycapital intensive work there to al produced we would kill more them and they wouldhave us

stats technolo why was it applied in vietnam because after world war two in the fifties thesoviets had the atomic bomb they could be in destroy our economy aka base a pop our if we intervenemilitarily in the work in the world with too much force the argue clear wasto fight limited war indefinitely and the third world we will use oddly just-in-timeproduction system over there and ride to

the other side bankrupt why vietnam beckons saw communism not is another cut the socialorganization is another culture as another political system but instead they saw americans it has todo it in the natural she died like in congress will supportit other and alien kind of being the world wasdivided into super tuesday acts of

people communist and non-communist and therefore if i get a good credit their side ourside by the time the credit in these over to the creationof late fifties we had a period limited warrant act we had a conventional forces ready to go by the late fifties vietnam should be convenient

load place to test out this new theory of warfare techno war and a place to drive before anotherbatch kentucky but that's not been fascinatedin near a book about how a major part of the u_s_ supported acertain part of the war was to win the hearts andminds of the vietnamese through important u_s_ commodities olympia thatu_s_ government actually put up the money to import these commodities and createdthe whole infrastructure

and rather than win the hearts and mindsout of the overwhelming majority of the vietnamese people the just created morecorruption in a quality you want to talk about that aspect of your details just hard tous to realize how much money was poured into the country and so many ways if you're a high vietnamese general crooner japanese government army positions well business positions and would most american aid was on thelist

for sale on the international market bythe time in iraq the level of staffed unbelievably high in the only reason youdecide whether to try to control with that the american government's issue everydecision by the officer corps as the price wehave to pay for continuing the war so therefore in order to get somethingwe choose the vietnamese people would have seemed more in more and more

and there's an element of truth in thatbut also the greater truth was that simply corruption became compounded and uh... the riches became becamegreater we're talking about millions and millions upon hundreds ofmillions of dollars may or even currency manipulation currency fraudwasn't gimmick if you knew how to play the game you could get rich simply by exchangingyour money from from dollars to be esters to military scripting back again just nothing just by playing play withthe rules a little bit

that you didn't including massive inflation admit little odd for most people gotworse its what were your jobs available a fewpeople on top were able to make money off this clusterstealing the american editor of the bottom of your jobs open for you you can work for the american she couldwork on the base you could be an interpreter maybe if youhad minimal language skills resort remain

hillerman there has been set up like a halfmillion vietnamese women and gauge duke some kind of commercial sex prostitution massage parlors where everyou want to call it which grossed of there is hope multilevel herb sexual marketplace uh... threatening other drugs do drugssubject huge huge caroline importation coming from all placescoming from laos and the c_i_a_ was running a warrantlast winter

the hills people and liberationgovernment in order to buy it the leaders of thekills people by the way ocean government they had to acquiesce to the herointrade tons of heroin were brought in a rareamerica planes and limit means air force planes we find in bangkok in otherplaces in seoul on in in in two u_s_ soldiers in vietnam south you're going to use them in themilitary leadership was also heavily involved narcotics business general and subsequent president of therepublic of vietnam when band to ran one

major operation welwyn county but i'm sure marshall premier and vice president ran another for orphans what could you do shoeshine business wasn't so i thinkit's had to make money on the side shining shoes was like adefinition uh... going through garbage dumps

job today dismal live in this new world in vietnamnot a consumer paradiso and then the other hand you have the black market where as you say in your book you couldbuy a million by tank armored personnel carriers and of course viet cong where cabin onthe template themselves whenever they need american goods they considerthemselves out the problem the other aspect of the u_s_ policy well as anti-war part of their your mostbrilliant chapters in descriptions in

your book of the magnitude in nature ofthe air war and vietnam who was mentally i guessdirected against north vietnam do i discussed on elements of anymore therefore is a factory then clearly when you look at theirtheir work we got the biggest back we may havenothing by american reasoning you looked at meshit given at the data first bombs dropped on the market not because theyhad such a small small industrial apparatus

such a smoke number of bridges and things if you would think they would have justgiven up they didn't they were willing to sacrifice theirindustrial apparatus billing to the chips or the massive mention casualties and indeed contrary to american mythology where the vietcong were simplyto being totally supported from

the north rectly eighty percent of supplies the viet congused to even have been eighty percent supplies to india unusual raised himselfa small number supplies were sent out it couldn't be stopped no matter how hard the u_s_ bombed no matter how hard you escalated hiscampaigns no matter even after the close thepulitzer prize carmen distorted to systematically bombing the railroadlines between china and vietnam

he couldn't stop it the number of supplies wasn't that great on that the other hand air worded mobilizing north vietnamesepeople to exit considerable degree everyone had a job of one kind oranother either repairing the railroad repairingthe roads are taking over industry or working in agriculture

so immobilized him consolidated thatsociety terry on much like to nazi attack ongreat britain consolidated british morale which isopen on the other hand the people you say well well obama backto the stone age and we just practically dead most people don't recognize yet united states air force and navy dropbetween eighteen fifty million tons of bombs and rockets on southeast asia orworld war two united states dropped two point one million tons so the minimum s but then

it's about four times greater in worldwar two amigos at almost eight times greater than world war two and u_s_ motives nineteen sixty-sevenreport he has a party category summary the largest category in after vehiclesis buildings when you listen to the report supportobservers on the ground with the report is just about any modern cstaylor brickstructure over to to store all but one story because we're going to look like targetsunless there's a lot of those which are just on a more hospitals a lot of moreschools yes book and i was bomb back the

stone age there's no doubt about that but because they were not fighting atechnolo at illegal implemented now we saw in the previous program where at this uh... production assembly line type ofattitude resulted in date demand for body count or the land troops in the air war

they also have production quotas but i'mnot going to organization of this was right the unit of measurement it's called a sortie want fight by oneairplane and therefore squadrons queens therefore it behold large units have rates of production that they aresupposed to me the navy the air force and indeed wereincumbent in competition with each other to see you can quote you the mostproductive therefore the through the object was tofly into many nations as possible

within a of finite period of time like aweek or a month or whatever so relevant and pay attention to reallywhat you were bombing or to pay attention to the safest way too protect your pilots in the way tominimize civilian casualties military war managers devise ways to maximize sori rates and consequently

entered into serious irrational behavior they black and grey award where u_s_commander treated their own ground truth is expendable higher commensurate colleges expendable they would often be center missions alarm say looking for trucks in themiddle of rain storms when it's impossible to see trucks compiled into the ground you know youcan even see the ground when by thinking

about it but that keeps the saudi rahi hai or also say you're supposed to you knowwhich way we were given target it is the targets crimean but you still sing your planes up thereevery day five days in a robotic saxony murdered in order so that because that's simply this like a factory you keep doing thesame retained

but we sure telegraphed punches not all that many targets in that areaand i didn't take too many smarts to figure out about where they have forces headed specially wen li headed american date after a day making them fly up to the target beforemaking a good or not go decision on the weather that we already knew was notacceptable we turned over the target and came backagain the next day

to try again but this miracle pilots does it they died because the vietnamese clearlyunderstood where the americans were from flying the same pattern everyday andthey understood that and then we just keep coming so but often frequently vietnamese did wassimply move more and more antiaircraft guns into an area that the americans forsome reason one of the bomb in whatever happens

american pilots and that means fightinguh... violations against you pick our kidssurrounded by hundreds and hundreds of any aircraft weapons in in this way uh... by telegraphing are both countries uh... american pilots died i talked with a couple of the newapoplectic f_-four pilot to blame who told me to end up with a gun atrecently and im before playing mission carrying a very small bomb load

one pilot told me his goodness t_p_ wasso mad we risk eight guys he said when we could have come to hold on oneplane risking only two people and on the job better well then i have scheme or why did theysend out four planes the pilot said and if i know blessed just to keep our sortie ratehigh but i'll tell you this if they got andcrime we know what you heard about this orgybusiness on an aircraft carrier consolation the navy pilots who told methat he could do a better job of the few

eighty six is operating in the safety ofdarkness then with all those sky hawks kidding around the world wide load indaylight so i wouldn't think possible appear thatthe maybe was trying to alps or t_v_ air force an air force was tried on sorting thenavy my guys who were flying the sorties took a dim view of it and we had uh... incredible story inyour book or probably north vietnamese was actuallybring down the american jets with

handguns and rifles seems unbelievable arsonists in an advance group of americanstandpoint it is unbelievable in the acually c advanced technologysystem like a jet fighter bomber needs another advance technology like a sammissile not to bring it down and there is a lot of some interest inthat but north vietnam underwent a tremendoussocial mobilization part of that mobilization group whilegiving almost every one of god me that there's still a submachine gunarrive forever or light machine guns

the entire society was organizes a giantin new york way any aircraft system emmett clark really low level vietnamese present were underinstructions to simply get out in the field en masselie down and shoot up in the act to try to provide barrage with make level altitudes unsafe to american pilots andit happened curly hair but by the pilots

to report that several remaining planes were shotdown an extremely low level by peasants what this means for them but level flight became so dangerousthat they had to move higher are pretty consistently be picked up on radar is it just depends as could shoot downplanes as that but they do not an air space to americans that made all their operations had morehazardous so social mobilization was able tocompensate the technological inferiority

there is another example of this uh...in the whole team and trail when the united states bill padding incrediblyexpensive electronic warfare area which the uh... they were able which mania uh... vietnamese in that little shinswere able to overcome with barry simple tricks the joint chiefs of staff always wantedto invade north vietnam

insipid takeover handle an ipod or haveground troops in laos there's a place where between laos and thailand between uh...the south china sea in thailand something like thirty five miles or so for the effort is linden visual for justice for mostmagical line will keep before another out rivals bottom at the past cutting out literally let's just uh... that was changed toexpensive in terms of truth lies they

stated that area with electronic sensors listening devices sizes the pickupsmetal sensors of various kinds uh... these devices internship radiosignals to circling it that the aircraft intercept interest to computer banks inthailand in thailand intern organized air strikes over the trail the two things happen one the sensors woody collect

uh... bags if you're in honey entries tape recorders with cricket noises inwhich to try to mask the movement of trucks you find a sensor and you could justnormal general knowledge is a tape of normal general knowledge is next to it so you master sensors in one area whereyou actually seeing your troops in operations on the other and up so you get a taxing uh... youworld convoy drivers truck drivers

north vietnamese had sexual zagreb aidsthey had rocket players a lot of this is cabanas occurring atnight so the attorneys would throw out explosives to make americans feel like they were doing something and americans into wanted to believethat they were destroying vietnamese truck convoys y pilots but we work on the basis ofproductivity their majors you lieutenant colonelsmost of them walked before congress will

probably asylum or desperately want tobe brigadier general they need to be productive therefore they wrote their tendency isto report is high destruction of a trucks aspossible and it's a big joke eventually becamethe enemy intelligence was that the next day when congress wasflights would fly along with what she meant well they could never find thetruck carcasses anywhere near the numbers that uh... the pilots reported destroyed

so glad you began that deep in thelaotian jungles the great truck either yeah and my truck you therewas a monster that totally loved dead trucks midday meal is notonly have to read every night if he got up in the day the skeletons agood bit drugs so that when the reconnaissance planes came out and in the morning there were simply beno records this is not the site and thousandstrucks were destroyed that never to the extent

necessary remember relatively few supplies which himself byamerican calculations something like twelve times a day wasenough to support the warmest self you can put twelve times boxer mike tractortruck without any problem attachment to spare but even if you multiply it by figure fifteen or twenty fold stacy equitytractor trailer trucks a day approaching the entrails

or forty pickups or whatever that still such a small number of peopleare very expensive air war has a hard time i cannot stop that level of supply for most of the military general becausethat is that the war whose memoir hewlett and documents seized by the indicated to the u_s_ really one most ofthe battles of the war that the u_s_ records yes light was on its way tovictory and in particular there's a

right wing revisionist view that theu_s_ could've won the war at the time of the cat offensive at the u_s_ build up of maine courtney porsche units groundtroops began in sixty five by the end of sixty seven we have someone over four hundredthousand at four hundred fifty thousand maybe in the past five hundred thousandchristian country according to american records the official records kept in thepentagon and kept at military assistance

commanded nam we just about destroyed altogether ontrips they were all nearly decimated now why was that because of weapons werefalsified perhaps we begin a strike that all thatlast time once you move into wars productionprocess and the opposition managers lose their students at the devotee totheir subordinates below answers for the fidelity the trip upward mobility just like

in business where maybe go up you knowup to the highlander is the main again that was a letter in the military the currency what that was to report thebody count so everybody buck their body count date body counts were routine not that not exceptional any trouble they worry that the body casket gettinghired uses the reports went up the chain of command a larger figures became

well the first report i would send them was from the facts from the informationwe collect intent was objective that it would be if it could be now we founded and but uh... that wouldalways come back doctored up from higher headquarters that was standard operating procedure when i was repeated historian there so the result is that the battle news was edited and revised until it wasacceptable to the higher ups

hail and in order to write open relieson our civil aid program such as increasing the fifteen english classesof three hundred to make it look good to the politicians and people back home and i've been ordered to raise thefigures for food distribution and uh... refugee villages but i've also had retired battle reports the old meeting uh... certain facts uh... and thereby turning in northvietnam army victory over superior american forces

into our u_s_ victory so our paper we had warren but in reality two things fired that was part one of our victorythe second point was in nineteen sixty seven the american high command decided that viet cong guerrillas nolonger existed

insulate the polish them on paperanswered because just like american forces we don't have any part-timeguerrillas are full-time guerrillas and also to google rulers have to do tohave tanks to guerrillas have helicopters to guerrillas have uh... heavy artillery they don't have as much hardware as wedid so they are clearly a threat to americanunits so several hundred thousand

viet cong guerrillas were abolished from what's called theorder battle so what you would eliminate theguerrillas on paper and then you charged so you have a hot lower total estimate uh... enemy forces can you have an inflated by uh...estimate of how many of those you've killed well it worked

lyndon johnson desperately needed apolitical victory to follow sixty seven so he got your westward to come back andsay we're winning we're winning the war student enter an interface three and that is that we are mop up for acouple of years and what was having a reality well reality the viet cong courses debated the local forces had expandedradically from nineteen sixty four three late nineteen sixty seven according to u_s_ figures they were onlyabout two hundred thousand yahoo com

but minimum c_i_a_ man started likegoing profiles a primary figure things he calculated about a half million withunderstand what that means at the c_i_a_ man is doubling hit the estimate but it seems to me theydon't have any idea at how many of them are on there but it means a double is probably thehighest figure he can get away with and still will be listened to by anyone in reality the enemies

gaining strength we have with the crew viet cong we have work at least dissipation still in fiftythousand troops here being sent south in the border zones along cambodian laotianborders and in sonar showed us that the other satisfy co-wrote the book of the country in the u_s_ strategic offensive failedof search-and-destroy the bombing operations had failed

in late january early february nineteensixty eight newark the display department viet congforces attacked in mass simultaneously for the first time normally they fought they dispersed operations they were not andrea under that under no snow still first time in asimultaneous national tax the attack succeeded in driving

one it we needed to pass occasional ouraudience involved in past occasional griffin m a countryside in the cities almost all of the vietnamese andamerican ground force units were driven out of the countryside back into thecities dip in the city's mayor and some vietcong forces inner cities and i've saigon way uh... regional capitals and we began to to battle in the cities so what happens

after a few weeks the viet cong withdrew from the cities their casualties were extremely highthey had not anticipated that the americans with bombing and conductartillery strikes inside the cities uh... but they did so i watch herself vietnam was reducedto rubble their casualties were high the americans in sap in the meantimeunits were gone from the countryside uh... desertion to be a massive

the economy which recruit many many many people now that theywould know opposing forces in the countryside their political cadres wereable to surface so they were weakened in many ways thanthe other hand they have achieved a decisive victory inviting their parents out of the countryside what is the regiment because american forces

were able to kill many of the commandos in theeconomy troops inside the cities the americans have general westmorelandcourt victory of course this ignores the fact that although he's going to the economy outof the city's he himself isn't going to have a countryside and it's made amockery out of his own previous claims also sparklers created many many people that they were far more and south vietnam than americans andwilling to admit

westmoreland and made a trip request foranother two hundred thousand soldiers this week request within the cityanalysis were seriously what was found was that even within the productionmodel of war if you would just come up at the same kind of what they wouldsimply add more resources to do it still the viet cong around just to people inthis out good fight on for another four or fiveyears at least three years to four years and then with anymore orsignificant looked at least dissipation

they could find on ten to twenty years and which he just we just could notdrive the other side bankrupt and you're saying that the north vietnamese armybasically had participated nodded yes i did get marketers army did not becausethey don't care the fact that most of the war they were quite a minimal over youconsider the number of via car trips in proportion to the number of northfeeling well that's true depth up until sixty eight after sixty eightthey entered the war in larger numbers

sir uh... the car were getting worse certainly the concern to claim your vehicle tooksevere losses which it appeared to be stripped the claim that they weredecimated indicated a spot in the claim that the americans onecare is false canisters remain healthy miracle warmanagers cities department stated their strategywas bankrupt and that there was no pac

decree so this finally created ah...religiosity time somewhere in this period i try not to long after with this a break in their self delusion thattechno war would win every hotmail here is a serious problem that people don'tunderstand it american television news began to bite from the late nineteensixty eight on began report the idea that the war was winding down

and that we were on our way out just not true this is a false statement you should never believe it's when youlook at the casualty figures how many american soldiers were killedfrom sixty-five to sixty-eight for sixty three sixty seven and then you take sixty eight when you look sixty nine crew seventythree the sixty nine three seventy three justabout is within a couple of hundred

is high is the number of kill sixty doctor sixty-seven so-called weeksearch-and-destroy continued way way on internal until old mate seventy-one what was that thenthey finally convinced the u_s_ foreign policy is that was forthe u_s_ public that vietnam could be one plummeted sixty eight on american military began to

wickham progressively more restaurantsand bars certainly bible eight sixty nine seventy is inactive revolt againsthis commanders remembered at seventy five percent ofthe battles in vietnam where new shit about the enemy of the average americangrunge band used to have the that most people combat troops pennies to didiwalking an ambitious most mainline fairly quickly that whilethey were walking an ambush is that their generals were getting medals andthey were safe in helicopters runs on and so forth uh... subpoenaed to begin what's calledfragment ragging means

you take a fragmentation grenade and youput it at your superior whether it's a non-commissioned officerarjun or a battalion or captain or whatever it was a way to tell higher command not to treat ground troops' lives frivolously thatthey would not pursue aggressively pursue dangers combatsituations simply in order to make a visit to makehis superiors look good okay let me tell you had workweek starthaving more calls

which is like uh... dole will atmidnight everybody you know if it starts open inspiring screaming books on thewire books on the wiring barbed wire fences you know and then you try to kill any of thelifers that he didn't like so we tried to get to see all couple oftimes machine-gun one time he was uh... rack took nine holes his cock ninebullet holes but you don't go out of it and got away with that'd be shipment sowe couldn't check weapons they use your name so they'd be throwing grenades at thewiring yelling and shopping books on my

wired brooks and they'd blow the sirenand then run around and have to guide to be facing outward shooting men the otherhalf would be waiting for a wife her to come out of his pet yeah i've seen them told officers executed five or six times just put a price on his head makes one accusing gets the money next time he was out on a mission that everybody knew it was good

they just wait to humans and the right position and he estimates run quite high and itwas the official i'm accounts about six hundred fifty faking incidents real reasons to doubt that because ithink quite small and sure there are a lot of network reporter all of coursebecause no no commander wants to have when you say it's like i said my mymoment for a grenade at me we'll try to shoot me

i mean how do i do a good on your recordeither get promoted up that there is a great leader when you're reporting that there werepeople are shooting at you no i'm sure the records are not thefigures must be substantially higher this totally inadequate pulls the bonniealexander contracts her particularly unpopular officers butthere's also certified and felt mutilation a-level too people would not desperate if they werejust uh... do disoriented and they were not beingcared for by the command of the actual

operations often while slaughter ofuh... innocence suicide rates a fairly high standing up until apartheid is onepayments um... cartoon book by uh... banning tech forster it shows a picture of a man oversoldregarding metal rock with his trigger finger in the air looking for themillion-dollar weren't feeling like expose this nice index finger shot off he could get out of the worst or youdon't take your malaria pills we're going to do

therefore remove the kosher passionatelyarea there are many many ways out or people shooting themselves in the lots and lots of stories of selfmutilation or you do if your friend and algebra fran decided will be twice analytically days mission and he's had apremonition of death which is taken very very seriously allcombat soldiers are deeply superstitious sometimes issued or u_s_ you could useto add your friend not none of our place but it with him enough to get them out you described by the work its way

you cannot fight a war where people are are you going to search you avoid i'll tell you avoid that uh... but thatis a very prevalent than himself thirteen destroyed searching the voidand as you do you go out and you keep playing nuclear war you try like to goout and you know smoke some dopamine thanks radio reports or he gently try not to engage the enemy we talked about everyday told the guys felt the same way

reduced more accomplishing anything back some guys reselling depressed anddisgusted that he was killed themselves some guys were taken hand grenades and and blown themselves away they couldn't take the strain anymore cop who's really heavy i don't think a lot of the stuff wasreported do you guys would just kill themselves they are made probably send

stats home with a guy who was killed or missing-in-action did the antiwar movement calledclinton's saulters in creating a sense of what they werethey were doing was wrong that they would victims that are making mistakesthat have impact you think that it's going to live com coffeehouse g_i_coffeehouse mimicking anti-woman try to send a copy houses near u_s_ bases to uh... permit literature thanks

but obviously when you read soldiers memoirs and novels refusing to talk about the anti-warmovement very much it's not to say there was an influence but they talk about we hacking to the situation of warfare that there and the one and uh... um... enemy in with the moral qualms andmoral qualms intercede on the battlefield but one of the credentialsof the anti-war movement

nobody would be the last five years agoi did not come in once it was stated that the u_s_ was going towithdraw eventually that made it more difficult there was one place in your book wherehe said that this actually it was a class war class warfare that was goingon that vitals are black soldiers clerked for fatherhood bragging ripple let's remember who went to vietnam after world war two the u_s_ militarydecided that too many college-educated

men have been killed danger of this wasthat it was going to hurt the scientific base of the country decided thanks chrisover the country was for we couldn't have the next generation ofweapons so the idea to this deployment of thecollege deferment was to keep the cool alive what this meant was remember this is anera of very few student loans very few scholarships and so forth it meant that the sons of the middleclass could go to college where the

sounds of the working class the military in the military itself military needs vast numbers ofwhite-collar skills so if you had any kind of like uh...clerical skills like middle class people do often do typing filing someone youcould ease more readily yet uh... and unarmed combat job what this translated into is that whatyou study got them to the corner who is in your infantry

units armor artillery they were overwhelmed they weredisproportionately minorities in the were white who were whites poor urban life so we had a a working-class largely working-class military combat military whereas a more middle class anti-war movement more middle-classlogistic apparatus

inherent in the military so the classrevolt a clash about not one cor revolution we're not talking to votersnow but it is sort of like uh... it wasrevoked against the manager yes if not in our interest exploded in new zealandyes and yet and it certainly would among black soldiers there do they they weredefinitely influence but my carmen racial consciousness and criticalconsciousness but prepare now and where many of the type signs ofbonding signs of you know that scanning special handshakes on so forth

i would be a value a plane that mediahandling the amount and and now i've spent a lot of time looking at thetapes and i have pushed closed if i could finish my outline i was going towrite a book about television news covers the water started to think wellwhat was not on the news for me but i saw in this country i wrote thisother book critic war was on the news is a lot of pictures and helicopters alot of pictures objects

a lot of pictures of tanks a lot ofhardware and wish techno what was the majorrepresentation to visual representation along with his today that these theseplease presentation to the people weapons i love my favorite when a_b_c_ show a_b_c_ series where at the first one outings may seethe battleship new jersey that ocean new jersey just been reconmission in sixty nine and we see it here's the sixteen eachgun dealers is john thirty-foot balanced

at the camera looks down a guy startstalking about you to two hundred fifty-pound projectile sixty miles had broken thirty two feet of reinforcedconcrete amanda had at the other way at least thirty two miles sixty feet we push them back again ifthe two identity or kill radius it simply i committed a corresponding toa salesperson and i i think i should buy two more thebattleship new jersey analysis is currently a m believe and in the film patterns in othercorrespondent

angel and uh... the bank of the river it's about the bbc frankly offline trashcan and he remember the uh... roadrunner rockets mineral that want to cut it wasalways getting something from acme rocket company that i was kinda fuckedup trash can on a stick with the kind oflike trying on top of it exactly what this rocket look like was obviouslyhave a homemade crude rocket end of the contrast of subletting seemslike american victory so insured

because we love our technicalsuperiority court within a point out the vehicle on the fires that rocketknows exactly what he's shooting it was a battleship new jersey there where they may not where it's much more fun so that it would be pissed off peoplesold out people ought not to bring many deadpeople who were very few ended they have the death conditioners was much like awarmer the elections number will go on

three-star body count each week which shared we were always winning we saw onevillage one village was born in nineteen sixty five dash yet and again the kind of course bonnieguidance of air travel uh... mail i appeared as its is rememberdid not come from the news and it didn't come from a normal networks a came froma veteran who tried hard to get the moves out their little coverage of messages cameon

ordinary language of the war groupsslopes land bank more american news correspondent evertalked about those terms of what they meant it simply did not occur in status verymuch official perspective waco and got critical from sixty eight on a case where youwould see reports about failed technology indication cutesy stories about tragicamerican deaths it was like a human interest tragedybecome permanent of criticism

rather than any kind of explanatory notion of what i would not succeed bill let's talk about a valuation of thevietnam war a lot of people written books about a historian generals andetcetera west coast image who's just come back towhere we start to disappoint by nasa says the u_s_ head to get outwho couldn't fight when i read it wouldn't do it in themorning you could read it moved to the air force campaigns but it was campaignshave their problems to you can hold plan with airplanes

silly money to the south vietnamese theywere corrupt they've just had more maybe crap it so we would hate it my analysis and you know if it wasdefeated and that that's that's the stamp on tothe question is how have the historians of a novelist uh... so on treated this tragic ofamerican desi the conditional path as a liberalinterpretation that is it's just a strategy

it's just kind of a wrong out theresomewhere and lacking suspect were all sorts of small mistakes are moremimicking smallness moments later schlesinger lovers i think it would bethe most famous the classical case stanley cornell's book learning p_b_s_series most recent example the commotion presley's not anexplanation you know twenty years a small mistakes doesn't explain a war that has a very clear structure which is my argument at the structural contradictions about men who work thereand in its disillusioning failure

the second school the most prominentright now is the cutest lost because a self-imposed restraints so bizarre experience of military term often used in joint chiefs of staffdocuments called for escalated air war and vision is gprs they should have invaded northvietnam in nineteen sixty six and taken handle an ipod course telecom of that other one ofthose persons who had those guns firing again shooting against aircraft

the jet fighter pilots they were alsoorganized and prepared for invasions argument you why do you know emissionfactor north vietnamese didn't have any troops himself that was one of the majorreasons it wasn't that they didn't want to helptheir comrades in their southern comment it which which were being held back any part of our project the home frontagainst a possible american invasion stucco into jail the plan for a year to fighting thisinvasions let local militia and regional forces fight for the first dated twodays

so once the americans are tired after twenty four to forty eight hoursacross the conduct damen north vietnamese army waiting tosee and we did this notion that the u_s_could've had a successful invasion thus far o'neill fantasy unworthy of any kind ofserious consideration and that they had been expeditionaryforce in handling high phone we still that would change the class structure insouth vietnam that would change the fact that you had a peasant renewal inatlanta that you want to do this to

wanted uh... self determination letterin capital and he warned that the whole countrywere national unification 'cause the whole basis of the culture was growingup before debater and that's all they don't all theirlives for two thousand years first throughout the chinese to french and now the american soldier it wouldhave changed at the self-imposed restrain still this fall will have we learned anythingfence line we you've point out they total

corruption and self-delusion of themilitary and the civilian leaders throughout this first of all thank you naked wagestechnol war and secondly having uh... not paying attention tobeing realities which like uh... try to sleep up from theintelligence field suppressing any intelligence that woulduh... contrary to the contrary to what they wanted

on it still in that thing motivating n do where you probably thinkyou applying it to you well i have a couple questions certainlythere was one example which has been a tip and we just barely took it even thoughthere was a minimum opposition most of the u_s_ special forces command as bitthe dust in various operations governor various mishaps one kind or another also

the military's analysis is well not onlydo we fight with one hand tied behind our back a week or two slightly morerapid escalation so honduras has been prepared a seriesof airfields and ports have been prepared in honduras in order to bring forty fifty thousandtroops into battle within a week they had to the subtleties fortress and they still have million military hadthe vision that they could probably take when i won a few other places and acouple weeks rather than an extensive

central america war which was escalate tremendously because the nicaraguantoday i have no choice except to expand the war outside nicaragua to make thebattlefield bigger the battlefields bigger than unitedstates has to disperse its troops it's this virtues are dispersed kit cheap decree activated them back to vietnam but i'dlike to have one other thing i have not learned a thing with an author

most feminist anger many veterans ofcourse when you have sooo mail certainly don't want to see this they'reprobably parts of the military inverse mornin positions we don't want to see amajor escalation but then we're on track for another kind of of majorintervention whether or not will be since the iran artwork crisis hasemerged that may be off for a while i don't knowbut they're certainly philippines there's another growing insurgency there

the chair of the chances for anothermajor intervention in another series of self delusions are very very high because the peoplethat officer corps who were successful in vietnam or the people who were incharge now the people who would be dissonance the to him for lieutenant colonels andmajors who would be the risk of repulsed they got out they reside most of it ironically the arm yourself recognizethis nineteen seventy war college study

which indicated ah... that there was a significant differencebetween the ideal army values such as honesty integrity bravery justice andresponsibility and the real values which are practicedby the military inorder to promote career advancement here is the studies conclusion the present climate does not appear tobe self-correcting the human drives for success andrecognition by singers sustained if not inflamed and by thesystem that rewards and management which

cater to media personal success at the expense of moral and epochalvalues would appear to only be perpetuated by the current environment the fact alone that the leaders of thefuture by those who survived and excelled within the rules of the presentsystem militates in part against any selfstarting incremental return toward the practical application of ideal armyvalues and in the final reason and that theproblem of learning

is that there are cultural reasons thatmake the american people want to believe the self-reproach restrain school and that is we are used to petition thecowboy who comes and stays a society against the enemies and the power structure cannot defenditself the idea of a week authority that has tobe saved by a warrior shows that in many places in american cultures in thewestern into detective you have the detectiveyou know is outside the law all the super man in the nasty danger figures ofthe twenties and thirties certainly

are able to portal criminals legal authorities cannot uh... but also that is that the policetechnology cannot self-serving embarrassed to talk to that if we haveenough technological military force we can helpthe win the war if you have people it's hard not tobelieve in your hardware americans don't worry about social relations they don'tlearn about class structure everyday in the newspaper or about cultural history every dailynewspaper

they learn about what's for sale then part of the lesson of vietnamconcerning the limits of at the water the situations in which technolo butwell i but it cannot achieve victory they can destroy lenny can destroypeople but he can't create a government cranky recreate a culture it can create a society and this is another thing we try to doin vietnam to oppose the model of the consumersociety are then add american-style suppose democracy would it be electionsin situations where these just couldn't

it did work in a way you know what youhave people can become corrupted they did get into their consular under somethings but it just doesn't have a stable society itdoesn't builder dad will people willing to die for thatsociety that was a hope i'll let you have to be a crappy vietnamese that whatit looks like things we know they were willing to go out and if insight on thegap are not biggest did they bought their ticketsout united states that the patrons were divided that just collect and jess four are getting rid of thelandlord to local oppressors here to

make perfect sense to them and there's been this problem theso-called vietnam syndrome which are leaders have been complaining about allthese years sensitive there was a fitness in the land quickly if i lost the will to fight yet and uh... but it looks like the american public had a clearer

picture of what uh... the war was allabout them the than the leaders but uh... acute how would you expectthat can do you think they were overcoming that vietnam syndrome now sothat they can but i don't think the american public ever had an idea whatwith raw images knew something was wrong and it wasn't getting better contracting a leader fighting this may be easier for people to believe theself-imposed restrain school to believe that we lost because we didn't fighthard enough for the package that the package proctorcultures presented here a bit of the

warrior imagery is well mined grammarsstrong on the rise because many classical war movies made in severalkind of very warm and he's made um... it's definitely a war culture how people go clearly though there's there's still aresistance there still a certain level which disaster vietnam detached in atleast on people's memories either merrill lynch say they'll haveunderstanding of why it failed a welder structural reasons there is a fear that

it will happen again